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If defense is replaced with each fortification then it makes Citadel and Fortress useless to build.
Perhaps instead of replacing the defense it just adds but new amounts. So castle would add 15k, greater castle 25k(40k total) and legendary castle add 60k. This way a fort could be built if someone really wanted to try and maximize defense. Perhaps it is already this way I know UM is a pretty darn smart with this kind of stuff.
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(02-27-2019, 06:11 PM)Draugr Wrote: If defense is replaced with each fortification then it makes Citadel and Fortress useless to build.
Perhaps instead of replacing the defense it just adds but new amounts. So castle would add 15k, greater castle 25k(40k total) and legendary castle add 60k. This way a fort could be built if someone really wanted to try and maximize defense. Perhaps it is already this way I know UM is a pretty darn smart with this kind of stuff.
I was actually attempting to test this when our game was ended on turn 10.
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There are all kinds of factors in determining pc stats. Minimum/maximum ranges, terrain, coastal, regional character, pc type (e.g. major cities get a personalized bump in stats over a standardized city - Stormgate's stats are higher than the rest btw), kingdom-specific (e.g., Atlantians' capital gets a nice bonus in all stats), etc. During the test period, I verified that the bonuses are being correctly applied so no worry there.
About fortifications, during the test period, pc defenses were being stacked so high that they were unbalancing the game so fortifications no longer stack and building a higher upgrade (e.g. castle) replaces a lower version. Also, The Choosing's trait bonuses were removed for pc defenses (e.g., industrious) with only one remaining (controlling a region +10% defense). That brought the pc defenses down to be reasonable while still allowing players the ability to increase their defenses by several means (order 600, wizard spell, fortifications). And no, you cannot build a fortress after a castle.
As for gameplay on the fortifications, it depends on the particular situation on which one you prefer. Certainly, the castle line of defense is the better choice but they all drain pc resources (-6k to food/gold if you go all the way). On the other hand, if you're in a desperate pinch, plopping down a citadel is cheaper for the defense bump and doing so doesn't permanently reduce your pc's food/gold. So the assortment of fortifications provides the players some selection on which they wish to do for the game or for a particular situation.
About buildings giving a one-time bonus, that was discussed during the test game I believe. Also, keep in mind that a building only affects that particular pc so if you build a thieves guild or wizard's tower, you'll only get that discount if you train at that pc. Not elsewhere. You may build at every pc if you wish but only at the pc location will you get that effect.
Hope that helps...
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02-27-2019, 07:52 PM
(This post was last modified: 02-27-2019, 07:57 PM by Ry Vor.)
There is some imprecision in language that is causing confusion, both perhaps in the development notes and in the questions here.
Here is the basic table for PC production.
Maelstrom Base PC Values
Minor City values and 15% increase in base PC Defense from The Choosing
Values before traits and regional bonuses applied
Range is plus or minus up to 15%
Capitals are 25% higher for all categories
Before any regional or terrain adjustments
Village
Town
City
Minor City
Average Defense
2990
10350
21850
16100
Average Census
16000
30000
55000
42500
Average Supply Production
9800
3400
-6000
-1300
(was 8300)
Average Gold Production
2700
9000
22000
15500
Minimum Defense
2541.5
8797.5
18572.5
13685
Minimum Census
13600
25500
46750
36125
Minimum Supply Production
8330
2890
-5100
-1105
Minimum Gold Production
2295
7650
18700
13175
Maximum Defense
3438.5
11902.5
25127.5
18515
Maximum Census
18400
34500
63250
48875
Maximum Supply Production
11270
3910
-6900
-1495
Maximum Gold Production
3105
10350
25300
17825
On the notion of "one time increase", a PC base starts at a value based on the above and traits, terrain, coastal, etc. It doesn't have increases of say 25% to each improvement that is already a percentage increase. So if a region has a 25% increase in supply production and the average is 8000 for a village, ignoring everything else - terrain, coastal, kingdom cultural traits and whatever I'm not thinking of right now, the regional character adjustment would make the average 10,000 supply. Then, an improvement in that region's PC that increased it 25% would move it from 10,000 to 12,500 supply. In the village in other regions, the base average of 8000 increases to 10,000 with the improvement, so the benefit region PC is effectively adding an additional 25%, i.e., the 2000 increase is 2500 for the benefiting region village.
On another post on waiting to do something to get the biggest benefit if it is one time, it is a principle of multiplication that it doesn't matter the sequence in which you multiply numbers. If something was added (not multiplied) and then multiplied, it would make a difference.
Yes, there wasn't supposed to be the elimination of a fortress or citadel in building a castle. That will have to linger until a next code update.
So, I will add, the intention isn't to give just some players who have figured out things an advantage, but neither is it our intention to tell players all the outcomes of actions, so I don't think we will generally explain what may happen if an order is given, players will realize it is a game and try it, and use the experience to add to their knowledge. Some questions to support are very detailed: if I have these x factors vs. y factors and z occurs what will happen or worse, explain why this happened? These can be asked on the forum, if you wish.
(02-27-2019, 07:30 PM)unclemike Wrote: There are all kinds of factors in determining pc stats. Minimum/maximum ranges, terrain, coastal, regional character, pc type (e.g. major cities get a personalized bump in stats over a standardized city - Stormgate's stats are higher than the rest btw), kingdom-specific (e.g., Atlantians' capital gets a nice bonus in all stats), etc. During the test period, I verified that the bonuses are being correctly applied so no worry there.
About fortifications, during the test period, pc defenses were being stacked so high that they were unbalancing the game so fortifications no longer stack and building a higher upgrade (e.g. castle) replaces a lower version. Also, The Choosing's trait bonuses were removed for pc defenses (e.g., industrious) with only one remaining (controlling a region +10% defense). That brought the pc defenses down to be reasonable while still allowing players the ability to increase their defenses by several means (order 600, wizard spell, fortifications). And no, you cannot build a fortress after a castle.
As for gameplay on the fortifications, it depends on the particular situation on which one you prefer. Certainly, the castle line of defense is the better choice but they all drain pc resources (-6k to food/gold if you go all the way). On the other hand, if you're in a desperate pinch, plopping down a citadel is cheaper for the defense bump and doing so doesn't permanently reduce your pc's food/gold. So the assortment of fortifications provides the players some selection on which they wish to do for the game or for a particular situation.
About buildings giving a one-time bonus, that was discussed during the test game I believe. Also, keep in mind that a building only affects that particular pc so if you build a thieves guild or wizard's tower, you'll only get that discount if you train at that pc. Not elsewhere. You may build at every pc if you wish but only at the pc location will you get that effect.
Hope that helps...
I don’t think it clarifies much. Here is yes or no question:
Do buildings such as granary only apply a one time bonus to production?
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(02-27-2019, 07:54 PM)Acererak Wrote: (02-27-2019, 07:30 PM)unclemike Wrote: There are all kinds of factors in determining pc stats. Minimum/maximum ranges, terrain, coastal, regional character, pc type (e.g. major cities get a personalized bump in stats over a standardized city - Stormgate's stats are higher than the rest btw), kingdom-specific (e.g., Atlantians' capital gets a nice bonus in all stats), etc. During the test period, I verified that the bonuses are being correctly applied so no worry there.
About fortifications, during the test period, pc defenses were being stacked so high that they were unbalancing the game so fortifications no longer stack and building a higher upgrade (e.g. castle) replaces a lower version. Also, The Choosing's trait bonuses were removed for pc defenses (e.g., industrious) with only one remaining (controlling a region +10% defense). That brought the pc defenses down to be reasonable while still allowing players the ability to increase their defenses by several means (order 600, wizard spell, fortifications). And no, you cannot build a fortress after a castle.
As for gameplay on the fortifications, it depends on the particular situation on which one you prefer. Certainly, the castle line of defense is the better choice but they all drain pc resources (-6k to food/gold if you go all the way). On the other hand, if you're in a desperate pinch, plopping down a citadel is cheaper for the defense bump and doing so doesn't permanently reduce your pc's food/gold. So the assortment of fortifications provides the players some selection on which they wish to do for the game or for a particular situation.
About buildings giving a one-time bonus, that was discussed during the test game I believe. Also, keep in mind that a building only affects that particular pc so if you build a thieves guild or wizard's tower, you'll only get that discount if you train at that pc. Not elsewhere. You may build at every pc if you wish but only at the pc location will you get that effect.
Hope that helps...
I don’t think it clarifies much. Here is yes or no question:
Do buildings such as granary only apply a one time bonus to production?
Yes, only a one time bonus at the time of construction.
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Can you build multiples of the same building? IE 2 x Granary?
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(02-27-2019, 08:33 PM)Calidor Wrote: Can you build multiples of the same building? IE 2 x Granary?
Sorry, no. Only one building type per pc so only one Bazaar, one Thieves Guild, one Wizard's Tower, etc.
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Well That clears that up 
(02-27-2019, 08:28 PM)unclemike Wrote: (02-27-2019, 07:54 PM)Acererak Wrote: (02-27-2019, 07:30 PM)unclemike Wrote: There are all kinds of factors in determining pc stats. Minimum/maximum ranges, terrain, coastal, regional character, pc type (e.g. major cities get a personalized bump in stats over a standardized city - Stormgate's stats are higher than the rest btw), kingdom-specific (e.g., Atlantians' capital gets a nice bonus in all stats), etc. During the test period, I verified that the bonuses are being correctly applied so no worry there.
About fortifications, during the test period, pc defenses were being stacked so high that they were unbalancing the game so fortifications no longer stack and building a higher upgrade (e.g. castle) replaces a lower version. Also, The Choosing's trait bonuses were removed for pc defenses (e.g., industrious) with only one remaining (controlling a region +10% defense). That brought the pc defenses down to be reasonable while still allowing players the ability to increase their defenses by several means (order 600, wizard spell, fortifications). And no, you cannot build a fortress after a castle.
As for gameplay on the fortifications, it depends on the particular situation on which one you prefer. Certainly, the castle line of defense is the better choice but they all drain pc resources (-6k to food/gold if you go all the way). On the other hand, if you're in a desperate pinch, plopping down a citadel is cheaper for the defense bump and doing so doesn't permanently reduce your pc's food/gold. So the assortment of fortifications provides the players some selection on which they wish to do for the game or for a particular situation.
About buildings giving a one-time bonus, that was discussed during the test game I believe. Also, keep in mind that a building only affects that particular pc so if you build a thieves guild or wizard's tower, you'll only get that discount if you train at that pc. Not elsewhere. You may build at every pc if you wish but only at the pc location will you get that effect.
Hope that helps...
I don’t think it clarifies much. Here is yes or no question:
Do buildings such as granary only apply a one time bonus to production?
Yes, only a one time bonus at the time of construction.
Thanks!
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