Some Specific Design Ideas for Maelstrom

[admin]

Again, randomness does not make for a lasting strategy game.  Design does.

Ah, an exercise in simplicity!

Now, what was it that King Solomon the Wise said about simplicity, again?

"How long, ye simple ones, will ye love simplicity? and the scorners delight in their scorning, and fools hate knowledge?"

Randomness can be a crown jewel in a game, or it can have the appearance of a rough and unpolished stone. Your appreciation for the lady in waiting that is randomness is lacking, to say the least. You spend too much time praying at the altar of the false gods of design, if you ask me. Simplistic choices and simplistic comparisons frequently yield false choices, and particularly where one is already predisposed to be biased in favor of one over the other.

Still could have Giant Ants and Tyrant begin with more PC's in more regions.

Giant ants! Ah...Now, you're talking!

[admin]

Only Fanatics may undertake an assassination mission unless the kingdom has the trait “Killers”, then agents may as well and they may execute hostages of neutral kingdoms (as well as enemies).  Killers get -2 to starting influence.  They also have +15 points to capture fleeing emissaries when conquering a PC.  They generally have Suspicious Regional Reactions outside of their capital and 2nd region town.


I'm looking to add a fun element to the game that has been there but hasn't been used much.  That being Kidnapping, Rescues, Ransom.  So some prohibition about killing prisoners other than declared enemies.  More kidnapping, less assassination.  Then ransom as you can't execute them without Influence loss unless declared enemy, or hold them while they arrange for rescues.  New spell for rescue assistance.  Prisoners always sent to capital.  I think this will be a fun little new component to the game.

Just an idea that came to mind, as I was reading this thread - In real life, when people become killers (we tend to call them murderers), they gain notoriety. They become wanted men. A price gets placed on their head. They become hunted. They become the object of man hunts!

Not trying to complicate anyone's life, and certainly not the programmer's, but what if the game spawned a variety of different entities Hell-bent on tracking these killers down?

I mean, even across societies that are very different in culture and customs, some actions transcend national, regional, and municipal borders. Murder - aka killing - is an offense against society at large in all its diversities and forms. It's Rick's "fun element" quip which caused these thoughts on this subject to form from the nether void of nothingness. So, blame him, not me.

Each turn, a chance for a new bounty hunter or mob or select entity to take an "interest" in each such "killer" would occur in the code. Maybe it's an ogre. Maybe it's a dwarven bounty hunter or a human sheriff's posse. Maybe it's a paladin of righteousness, or a demi-god, or dare I say it, something worse?

It all boils down to the core issue of what qualifies as a fun element within allowable limits?

I have no dog in this fight. Rather, I'm just passing through, and something posted here caught my eye.

I return you now to your regularly scheduled chaos.

[JonDoe]

Only Fanatics may undertake an assassination mission unless the kingdom has the trait “Killers”, then agents may as well and they may execute hostages of neutral kingdoms (as well as enemies).  Killers get -2 to starting influence.  They also have +15 points to capture fleeing emissaries when conquering a PC.  They generally have Suspicious Regional Reactions outside of their capital and 2nd region town.


I'm looking to add a fun element to the game that has been there but hasn't been used much.  That being Kidnapping, Rescues, Ransom.  So some prohibition about killing prisoners other than declared enemies.  More kidnapping, less assassination.  Then ransom as you can't execute them without Influence loss unless declared enemy, or hold them while they arrange for rescues.  New spell for rescue assistance.  Prisoners always sent to capital.  I think this will be a fun little new component to the game.

Just an idea that came to mind, as I was reading this thread - In real life, when people become killers (we tend to call them murderers), they gain notoriety. They become wanted men. A price gets placed on their head. They become hunted. They become the object of man hunts!

Not trying to complicate anyone's life, and certainly not the programmer's, but what if the game spawned a variety of different entities Hell-bent on tracking these killers down?

I mean, even across societies that are very different in culture and customs, some actions transcend national, regional, and municipal borders. Murder - aka killing - is an offense against society at large in all its diversities and forms. It's Rick's "fun element" quip which caused these thoughts on this subject to form from the nether void of nothingness. So, blame him, not me.

Each turn, a chance for a new bounty hunter or mob or select entity to take an "interest" in each such "killer" would occur in the code. Maybe it's an ogre. Maybe it's a dwarven bounty hunter or a human sheriff's posse. Maybe it's a paladin of righteousness, or a demi-god, or dare I say it, something worse?

It all boils down to the core issue of what qualifies as a fun element within allowable limits?

I have no dog in this fight. Rather, I'm just passing through, and something posted here caught my eye.

I return you now to your regularly scheduled chaos.

Personally I do not like the idea.  It seems very random and likely to take away more than it helps the overall enjoyment.  Nobody wants to randomly see they just lost something they have been working so hard to achieve due to a completely random act and would likely just glaze over the report otherwise to make sure it did not hurt them or there current enemy.
Though not good for the choosing I saw a lot of good ideas in the posts from UM about deities and gods. I think that concept could be developed very well with the right kind of Ry Vor creativeness. Also fits very well into the game as it is.  It could further develope devout kingdom even start srperating them into there own true religions vs how they currently are all basically the same god in a way now

[Ry Vor]

There are a lot of ideas and suppositions here. 

I don't think I'm stuck for ideas.  On the contrary, we have lost lots of Imperators who didn't really embrace The Choosing.  They liked 2nd Cycle, and knew the exploits.  I didn't like the exploits, saw them as design weaknesses, not a good thing to have favorable exploits.   So we keep changing. 

Are my design ideas ever perfect?  No.  No question.  But I think The Choosing brought a lot to Alamaze.  And Maelstrom will do it again. 

People that read the forum know in a game of this complexity, we don't need more "random".  Just who your kingdom neighbors are is random enough. 

Players should really take a longer look at their kingdom's traits and special abilities, and set about a strategy.  In a diplomacy game, you really do have to communicate at least a bit, otherwise you become a target by default.  Don't go through a game as the Cimmerians and later ask why you didn't have a winter invasion.  

Looking at Steel (individual 12 player games) only, the five wizard kingdoms have won nearly half of the completed games.  So, we will have various changes including you need to research past Power 5 only at a PC with a constructed wizard tower, and now they start with a P3 instead of a P4.   That kind of thing. 

Now, it's not an either or with Dwarves or Warlock.  Now You can start the Dwarves anywhere, not be excluded for the most popular kingdom selections in The Choosing.

[admin]

People that read the forum know in a game of this complexity, we don't need more "random".  Just who your kingdom neighbors are is random enough. 

I always enjoy reading your reasoning, even when I think that you will invariably end up shooting yourself in the foot. Here, you remind me of your long and ardent advocacy of the positions that you designed for Fall of Rome, which ended up imbuing that game with a very generic feel, but which you clung to in the names of "design" and "strategy," no matter what anyone tried to tell you to the contrary.

Nonetheless, march on, Ry Vor! Force march in the name of design. Forward, ho!

You might want to take a break from your designing long enough to update your forum software, though. You're only two versions behind, currently. Just a reminder.

[Ry Vor]

Another country heard from.  Welcome back, Maximus Dominus.  Creator of the forum.  Creator of Suspense & Decision magazine.  Selfless supporter of what he insists on calling PBM.

Yeah, I have asked for 30 years, what is a better design?  Not humble I suppose.  I have my backers, including the designers of Axis and Allies and Shogun and I believe Hyborian War.  Definitely the folks behind MEPBM and Legends.  Origins and GAMA.  Answering my own question, maybe Settlers of Catan?  But you run into trouble over four players.  Or you can say the splashy graphics in a game of millions of players.  But for our space of say a dozen players in a given strategy game, I think we might be #1.  

Design is everything.  Marketing is important.   Yeah, we would like more active players.  

As far as I know, we, and by that I mean mostly Mike lately, are advancing this small hobby.  This is where it is happening.  The others seem to be disappearing.

[Thunderbird]

Another country heard from.  Welcome back, Maximus Dominus.  Creator of the forum.  Creator of Suspense & Decision magazine.  Selfless supporter of what he insists on calling PBM.

Yeah, I have asked for 30 years, what is a better design?  Not humble I suppose.  I have my backers, including the designers of Axis and Allies and Shogun and I believe Hyborian War.  Definitely the folks behind MEPBM and Legends.  Origins and GAMA.  Answering my own question, maybe Settlers of Catan?  But you run into trouble over four players.  Or you can say the splashy graphics in a game of millions of players.  But for our space of say a dozen players in a given strategy game, I think we might be #1.  

Design is everything.  Marketing is important.   Yeah, we would like more active players.  

As far as I know, we, and by that I mean mostly Mike lately, are advancing this small hobby.  This is where it is happening.  The others seem to be disappearing.

You guys are doing a great job, as someone who recently found you and played PBM in the 80's. I do think you should prioritize (to the extent possible) your web interface on the road map. The ability to play with the turn parser is so much better than by hand, that I can only imagine how the experience would be with a proper web map interface. The design is great, but people just expect more today (and should in my opinion) because the technology is there. The turn validator great as well, as it stops the frustration with a missed order. I just want something that combines the functionality of the 2.  It will probably slightly change your design going forward as well, as you will have a different user experience that will affect things like player complexity and noob friendliness.

[Ry Vor]

Thunderbird, Alamaze came out in 1986, won the Gama and Origins Game of the Year in 1987.  Fall of Rome came out in 2003, won Origins Game of the Year in 2004.  BTW, was just watching on the History Channel their series called Barbarians II.  They had all the tribes and leaders we included in Fall of Rome with the same essential style to the tribal leadership.  So, two thoughts: we had it right, and it would have saved me months of research if that series came out in 2003.

To T-Bird's recommendation, Fall of Rome was the first PBM styled game to have an interactive GUI including moving pieces on the map.  That was expensive to develop.  We also seemingly invented subscription-based automated billing.  Amazon came along a bit later.  It was amazing that back then, developing a website could easily cost over $25,000.  Now you can basically do it yourself for $100.  

Mike and I have discussed the more fully integrated GUI ala Fall of Rome for the couple years we have been together.  The intention is to do that in the game to succeed Alamaze after Maelstrom, a different game to be called Kingdoms of Arcania. 

Another appeal for all players to contact your buddies from other games to come to Alamaze.  Its a fraction of the cost of those other games, and I don't know of an argument made that those other games in any case are better.

[Ry Vor]

Only Fanatics may undertake an assassination mission unless the kingdom has the trait “Killers”, then agents may as well and they may execute hostages of neutral kingdoms (as well as enemies).  Killers get -2 to starting influence.  They also have +15 points to capture fleeing emissaries when conquering a PC.  They generally have Suspicious Regional Reactions outside of their capital and 2nd region town.


I'm looking to add a fun element to the game that has been there but hasn't been used much.  That being Kidnapping, Rescues, Ransom.  So some prohibition about killing prisoners other than declared enemies.  More kidnapping, less assassination.  Then ransom as you can't execute them without Influence loss unless declared enemy, or hold them while they arrange for rescues.  New spell for rescue assistance.  Prisoners always sent to capital.  I think this will be a fun little new component to the game.

Just an idea that came to mind, as I was reading this thread - In real life, when people become killers (we tend to call them murderers), they gain notoriety. They become wanted men. A price gets placed on their head. They become hunted. They become the object of man hunts!

Not trying to complicate anyone's life, and certainly not the programmer's, but what if the game spawned a variety of different entities Hell-bent on tracking these killers down?

I mean, even across societies that are very different in culture and customs, some actions transcend national, regional, and municipal borders. Murder - aka killing - is an offense against society at large in all its diversities and forms. It's Rick's "fun element" quip which caused these thoughts on this subject to form from the nether void of nothingness. So, blame him, not me.

Each turn, a chance for a new bounty hunter or mob or select entity to take an "interest" in each such "killer" would occur in the code. Maybe it's an ogre. Maybe it's a dwarven bounty hunter or a human sheriff's posse. Maybe it's a paladin of righteousness, or a demi-god, or dare I say it, something worse?

It all boils down to the core issue of what qualifies as a fun element within allowable limits?

I have no dog in this fight. Rather, I'm just passing through, and something posted here caught my eye.

I return you now to your regularly scheduled chaos.

Sorry to copy the whole text on this, but I just wanted to reply to the

"I mean, even across societies that are very different in culture and customs, some actions transcend national, regional, and municipal borders. Murder - aka killing - is an offense against society at large in all its diversities and forms. It's Rick's "fun element" quip which caused these thoughts on this subject to form from the nether void of nothingness. So, blame him, not me."

If you go back to the first page of this thread (17 pages back), I suggested that kidnapping, rescue and escape would be emphasized over murder, not that murder "would be a fun element".  That kidnapping and ransom would replace the very common assassination.  This is like politics, how everything gets turned around, for who knows what reason.

[Ry Vor]

More Initial Forces Available:  Patrols apart from Brigade sized groups

In The Choosing, kingdoms have 4 groups mainly, 5 with Military Tradition, and the Tyrant has six as a special kingdom ability.

For Maelstrom, contemplating:

Kingdoms have 3-5 Forces that are of at least 1 brigade (or Inactive), and have 2-4 Patrol sized Forces (or available), based on kingdom traits and flavor.  Rangers, Amazons, Nomads likely have 4 available patrols, Gnomes and Dwarves maybe 2.  

In itself, this should relieve the transfer headaches.  And again, a new strategic component, but starting leaders are somewhat rare and can you send them up in patrols rather than win an important early battle?

I don't really follow what this is.   Start with much less military?  Have more patrols?   
Or is it basically same number of attacking forces plus some extra patrols that can not get troops?

I dropped this idea.  Overly complicated with not enough upside for the complication.