~June 17 Update

[HeadHoncho]

The problem with these changes is that it will make the Wizard Kingdoms even stronger, because they will have more free intrinsics while the military and average magic Kingdoms will be hard pressed to get to that high level anyway.

Invisibility is less crucial for the Wizard Kingdoms now, since they can just raise a big and powerful army just like the rest of the Kingdoms (and also because patrols can no longer cast Kill spells, which removes some support, since a small military group full of support Wizards will always have to weigh the concern of being attacked and destroyed).

[Lord Thanatos]

The problem with these changes is that it will make the Wizard Kingdoms even stronger, because they will have more free intrinsics while the military and average magic Kingdoms will be hard pressed to get to that high level anyway.

Invisibility is less crucial for the Wizard Kingdoms now, since they can just raise a big and powerful army just like the rest of the Kingdoms (and also because patrols can no longer cast Kill spells, which removes some support, since a small military group full of support Wizards will always have to weigh the concern of being attacked and destroyed).

My friend,

These changes "will make the Wizard kingdoms even stronger" only in relation to the new balance established in 3rd Cycle.  This new balance has greatly improved the military (arguably the wizard kingdoms are now military kingdoms with a unique manner of recruiting) and agents.  Also, the addition of order 315 has added much greater strength to emissaries.  Wizards are not nearly as powerful as they were in 2nd.  The wizards need a little boost, in my opinion.  Making spells like Dire Wolf and True Seeing intrinsic are great additions to wizard utility without being overpowered.

[Acererak]

I would initially be for the intrinsic Dire Wolf at P6-7+ because as it stands I find the 3 square Counter Espionage rule change the toughest single change between 2nd and 3rd cycle. It's very difficult to keep an agent doing CE to protect wizards and artifacts in a group if they are moving with any regularity. In 2nd cycle you could pop a level 4-7 somewhere near the region where your war is generally happening and set up a standing order CE. Now that's impossible. 3 squares is nothing! But it's also generally a good rule change I think because it makes you think ahead so much more.

The counter espionage and guard range is 8.

I could have sworn that it was reduced to 3 in the supplemental choosing rules? That's really good to know!

[Lord Diamond]

I would initially be for the intrinsic Dire Wolf at P6-7+ because as it stands I find the 3 square Counter Espionage rule change the toughest single change between 2nd and 3rd cycle. It's very difficult to keep an agent doing CE to protect wizards and artifacts in a group if they are moving with any regularity. In 2nd cycle you could pop a level 4-7 somewhere near the region where your war is generally happening and set up a standing order CE. Now that's impossible. 3 squares is nothing! But it's also generally a good rule change I think because it makes you think ahead so much more.

The counter espionage and guard range is 8.

I could have sworn that it was reduced to 3 in the supplemental choosing rules? That's really good to know!

I can't remember the details, but there was something related to this. Perhaps a bonus if within 3 areas?

[Ry Vor]

I would initially be for the intrinsic Dire Wolf at P6-7+ because as it stands I find the 3 square Counter Espionage rule change the toughest single change between 2nd and 3rd cycle. It's very difficult to keep an agent doing CE to protect wizards and artifacts in a group if they are moving with any regularity. In 2nd cycle you could pop a level 4-7 somewhere near the region where your war is generally happening and set up a standing order CE. Now that's impossible. 3 squares is nothing! But it's also generally a good rule change I think because it makes you think ahead so much more.

The counter espionage and guard range is 8.

I could have sworn that it was reduced to 3 in the supplemental choosing rules? That's really good to know!

I can't remember the details, but there was something related to this. Perhaps a bonus if within 3 areas?

Yes, it was at range 3 during the betas, determined to not be a good provision, was changed back to 8 like all other agent orders when The Choosing began.

[HeadHoncho]

These changes "will make the Wizard kingdoms even stronger" only in relation to the new balance established in 3rd Cycle.  This new balance has greatly improved the military (arguably the wizard kingdoms are now military kingdoms with a unique manner of recruiting) and agents.  Also, the addition of order 315 has added much greater strength to emissaries.  Wizards are not nearly as powerful as they were in 2nd.  The wizards need a little boost, in my opinion.  Making spells like Dire Wolf and True Seeing intrinsic are great additions to wizard utility without being overpowered.

With the exception of DE, Wizard Kingdoms can get powerful emissaries just as easily as any other Kingdom, and Agent capabilities against them are degraded by Wizard spells such as Lichform and Wraithform, invisibility (which still has a defensive anti-Agent benefit even with intrinsic True Seeing), and now the possibility of a constant Dire Wolf (which is nice even if it doesn't stack).

I suppose we'll have to see how the first batches of games end up, but I have a feeling the Wizard Kingdoms will end up finishing quite strongly (with mental adjustments for player skill informally taken into account, of course).

[unclemike]

I can't remember the details, but there was something related to this. Perhaps a bonus if within 3 areas?

The extra bonus is only if your agent performs counter espionage at its current location. Keep in mind that agents cannot guard/protect themselves so use two agents at the same location if need to.

[Lord Thanatos]

These changes "will make the Wizard kingdoms even stronger" only in relation to the new balance established in 3rd Cycle.  This new balance has greatly improved the military (arguably the wizard kingdoms are now military kingdoms with a unique manner of recruiting) and agents.  Also, the addition of order 315 has added much greater strength to emissaries.  Wizards are not nearly as powerful as they were in 2nd.  The wizards need a little boost, in my opinion.  Making spells like Dire Wolf and True Seeing intrinsic are great additions to wizard utility without being overpowered.

With the exception of DE, Wizard Kingdoms can get powerful emissaries just as easily as any other Kingdom, and Agent capabilities against them are degraded by Wizard spells such as Lichform and Wraithform, invisibility (which still has a defensive anti-Agent benefit even with intrinsic True Seeing), and now the possibility of a constant Dire Wolf (which is nice even if it doesn't stack).

I suppose we'll have to see how the first batches of games end up, but I have a feeling the Wizard Kingdoms will end up finishing quite strongly (with mental adjustments for player skill informally taken into account, of course).

I do not doubt that Wizard kingdoms will perform as well as all the other kingdoms.  This is precisely because of what you identified: agents and emissaries (I would add military).  My point is that the portion of the game related to wizards makes them far less powerful than in 2nd (for all kingdoms, not just wizard kingdoms.)  Some may like this, while some may not (I am in this camp).  Players would previously fear the use of P7s against them.  Now . . . not so much.  This reduces, for me at least, the fantasy element to a large degree.  Ward population center may go completely unused.  Invisibility?  Not as functional.  Plus, wizards who wish to cast summon death, meteor storm, kill leader, etc... must be in a group.  Now if an invisible group is detected simply order 4 separate 110 orders to attack all four possible groups because the only spells a player wishes to protect against cannot be cast without subjecting the wizards to annihilation.  Is this really a good change?  Not if you are a wizard.

I guess if Meteor Storm had a 3 hex range (instead of only the hex the group is in) I would be satisfied and could live with all the other changes. . .

Water hexes are far, far more secure than they ever were previously.  Is this good?

[HeadHoncho]

I do not doubt that Wizard kingdoms will perform as well as all the other kingdoms.  This is precisely because of what you identified: agents and emissaries (I would add military).  My point is that the portion of the game related to wizards makes them far less powerful than in 2nd (for all kingdoms, not just wizard kingdoms.)  Some may like this, while some may not (I am in this camp).  Players would previously fear the use of P7s against them.  Now . . . not so much.  This reduces, for me at least, the fantasy element to a large degree.  Ward population center may go completely unused.  Invisibility?  Not as functional.  Plus, wizards who wish to cast summon death, meteor storm, kill leader, etc... must be in a group.  Now if an invisible group is detected simply order 4 separate 110 orders to attack all four possible groups because the only spells a player wishes to protect against cannot be cast without subjecting the wizards to annihilation.  Is this really a good change?  Not if you are a wizard.

I agree with most of the above (particularly the "needing brigades in a group" part in order to cast some important spells, which I also highlighted), with the notable exception of how the Wizard Kingdoms compare from Second to Third Cycle.

I think Wizard Kingdoms now are significantly more powerful than Wizard Kingdoms in Second Cycle, for three primary reasons. First is lower research costs, which is partially but not completely offset by the fewer pop centers in a region. Second is lower level access to some of the best spells. Third is the synergy that comes with being able to recruit powerful "combined arms" militaries, where before you'd basically be stuck with Wights as your best option.

I guess if Meteor Storm had a 3 hex range (instead of only the hex the group is in) I would be satisfied and could live with all the other changes. . .

I don't mind this change too much, honestly.

Water hexes are far, far more secure than they ever were previously.  Is this good?

This is a fair point and question, but as someone who has always appreciated defense and believed it should be easier to develop a counter than its corresponding offensive tactic, I think it's OK as well.

[Lord Thanatos]

I think Wizard Kingdoms now are significantly more powerful than Wizard Kingdoms in Second Cycle, for three primary reasons.  First is lower research costs, which is partially but not completely offset by the fewer pop centers in a region.  Second is lower level access to some of the best spells.  Third is the synergy that comes with being able to recruit powerful "combined arms" militaries, where before you'd basically be stuck with Wights as your best option.

Let us assume I agree with your statement here (a different discussion) just so we have a baseline.

My point is not that "Wizard Kingdoms" are hamstrung.  It is that wizards have become the jack-of-all-trades and master-at-none.  This is true in all kingdoms.  I no longer care if a WI or IL or GN wizard becomes a P7.  Such a wizard is not going to annihilate my kingdom.  He is merely another military leader within that particular kingdom's best group.  [Which is why Dire Wolf and True Seeing should be intrinsic.]  Not by himself a threat.  What can a wizard do now that causes you to plan specifically to address/prevent/mitigate?

In 2nd, much of every kingdom's planning revolved around locating and neutralizing enemy wizards.  Invisible assassination patrols!  Wizards annihilated villages/towns!  City defenses crippled!  Summon Death destroyed men and morale!  Armies of teleporting wights!  Limitless Ward/Sleep/Assassinate!  All of these things have counters; but all of these things had to be contemplated and countered by skilled players.  Now, most of these things can be disregarded.  I guess wizards can still assassinate without fear of death -- but agents can too!

Not having to plan for and counter these nasty spells has lessened the fantasy element for me. . .

Not plotting to develop these tools has lessened the fantasy element for me. . .

Everything revolved around wizard development in 2nd.  Hell, I rarely played a strong military kingdom without immediately attacking a wizard kingdom.  I never played a wizard kingdom without expecting Dragons and Giants at my castles . . .

It is this sense of wizards ruling the world -- or being prevented from enslaving us all  --  that provided the enjoyment of ruling a fantasy kingdom in a fantasy world.  I can play non-fantasy and did okay in FoR, as an example.  But the sense of imagining my wizards hiding in dank caves and plotting to overthrow the world as soon as they were capable (if not killed prematurely!) is missing now.  If a kingdom loses all its wizards (devastating in 2nd) in 3rd, it hires a couple more, raises them to P3 and posts them in their best group.  While less than ideal, the P3 is not as far removed in power from the P5, or P7 as he once was.

I am not saying there aren't very good reasons to have made all the above changes from a game-balance perspective.  I am simply saying that I no longer fall asleep plotting Alamaze conquests (not that I was ever very successful -- but it was always great FUN).  And that is a shame!