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Tomag Ironfist · 05-27-2016, 10:27 PM

I couldn't post this in UncleMike's Corner directly, but I think giving a heads up prior to the updates being implemented is a great idea! This will provide players some time to adapt their game strategies prior to the changes.

As far as the update - it looks sweet! I think that the intrinsic Dire Wolf and True Seeing are great additions to wizard kingdoms; I mean, you're paying so much for them already, you'd almost expect those things from them!d Big Grin

Atuan · 05-27-2016, 10:29 PM

agreed on the notice@!!!!!

HeadHoncho · 05-27-2016, 11:47 PM

Agreed.

Lord Diamond · 05-28-2016, 12:28 AM

I like the changes nd teh advance notice. Thanks!

unclemike · 05-28-2016, 03:29 AM

I thought these changes would cause a discussion on their effect for wizard kingdoms at the very least. In other words, by making True Seeing an intrinsic ability, a wizard kingdom's most favorite tactic (invisible group) will become completely nullified in the game.

And we're not talking about high level wizards either. Tier 1 magic kingdoms get True Seeing at L3 so it becomes intrinsic at L5. Tier 2 kingdoms like the Gnome get True Seeing at L4 so intrinsic at L6. This means that it won't take long for a kingdom to become immune to an invisible attack.

Personally, I think that the True Seeing spell is one of the most powerful effects in the game. It also reveals hidden pc's and any concealed/undetectable emissaries or agents at pc's. So if you spend points on getting a Mist Talisman or prefer casting the Conceal Emissary spell for your guys, those won't be as effective as before.

I'm kind of surprised no one is commenting about this change...

Jumpingfist · 05-28-2016, 03:57 AM

I agree and see other issues as well worth discussion like 3 free level 4 counter espionage with three low level wizards in a group, But since I have been strongly warned not to disagree or debate you and Rick on the forum I will only be posting this once so others understand why they see so much less of me on the forums from now on.

Ry Vor · 05-28-2016, 04:45 AM

I'm not being defensive, I am explaining. Smile

All these build off the Presence capability which no one objects to, and is actually something of a focal point for most kingdoms - getting to Power 3 to have Presence, bestowing abilities without consuming the one spell cast per turn.

So first we built on improving the Unusual Sightings by requiring Light or Bridge, so encounters above Fine required more planning than in 2nd Cycle. Then those spells became intrinsic two levels higher, so with perhaps a Power 3, he wasn't used up for the turn by casting Light. I think I like it.

Next, Dire Wolf and True Seeing are very useful spells, but no one is using them, because of the alternatives and other needs, and you have to guess right as to the time to cast them. Gray Mouser used Dire Wolf once, when it turned out not to be needed. I think it makes perfect sense that those abilities to high level wizards would apply without consuming their one spell per turn, and now those effects are put in play instead of on the shelf, at least for the most magical kingdoms.

For Standard Magic Prowess and the three levels below, intrinsic Dire Wolf and True Seeing will not likely ever come into play. If obtainable, they will have to be cast.

At Advantaged Magically such as the Ancient Ones and Demon Princes, whose max assured power is 6, they would have True Seeing at Power 6, which I think they will be quite happy about. For Dire Wolf, a cool spell or in this case ability, they get it at Power 5. For an Advantaged kingdom, that's something like 250,000 gold invested in an adept to get to Power 6 for one character. Its not like they are running all over the place.

At Mastery, the default (before a specific kingdom spell gained earlier) is the same level as Advantaged for those two spells at the casting level: 3 for Dire Wolf and 4 for True Seeing. No one is casting them there. So at Power 5, and Power 6, they are intrinsic.

So we come to Supremacy. At this point, yes, late in the game, Wizard Kingdom vs. Wizard Kingdom may not rely on Invisibility against one another. Is that bad? Do we want our Supreme Wizards to be constantly surprised? Again, in 3rd Cycle we want to build new tactics and strategies, not try to squeeze 2nd Cycle in.

So that's where the Dire Wolf and True Seeing intrinsic ability advance came from.

Atuan · 05-28-2016, 07:32 AM

Okay so here is my comments on dire wolf being intrinsic, why would I ever play the UN or PI. I must control 4 regions, I have no military, my wizards are weak and you just gutted my agents. I love that you two continue to experiment and think about changes to make the game better. But you pushed the Mage kingdoms to overpowered from just wow these kingdoms are strong.

Hopefully you nerd them a bit. Perhaps removing summon death.

unclemike · (This post was last modified: 05-28-2016, 12:45 PM by unclemike.)

I wanted to bring up this subject so we can have a healthy discussion on this or a new player may send support that their invisible army spell didn't work properly. Both old and new players should be aware that a kingdom may now become immune to an invisible attack by the intrinsic true seeing spell.

And it's not just the late game that's being affected by this change. A tier 1 magic kingdom should get several wizards of that level by turn 6. Tier 2 around turn 9 and tier 3 around turn 12. I'm not saying when these kingdoms will get their first wizard of that level but rather several of them within that timeframe.

In game 507 as the Gnome (tier 2), I developed three pwr-6 wizards on turn 9 and that's while fighting the RD during the first ten turns of the game that caused me to spend gold on denigrates and moving emissaries around (also developing three L10 agents and a 45k group). Left alone, a tier 2 kingdom like the Gnome could easily develop several pwr-6's by turn 7 without an issue.

So we're talking about becoming immune to an invisible attack fairly early in the game. In 2nd Cycle, it was popular to have teleporting, invisible groups flying around the map wrecking havoc but I don't know if that will do well in 3rd Cycle with this intrinsic change.

This is one of those areas that both old and new players should be aware of because it affects both offensive and defensive strategies. If you were planning on having an ambushing/invisible group as a defensive measure, you now have to consider what magic tier that you're defending against because an intrinsic spell may come into play and you could end up losing that defensive surprise attack that you were counting on.

So I wanted to bring this subject up so we can have a healthy discussion about it with everyone being aware of the possible change to their strategy/tactics in a game.

Lord Diamond · 05-28-2016, 01:55 PM

The concept of invisible groups has already been weakened by the auto detection of P-5 wizards and high ranking leaders, plus the rule requiring a brigade to use the death spells.

I don't have any qualms about the intrinsic True Seeing. Intrinsic Dire Wolf (mainly the L4 counter espionage) will be harder to counter. Atuan made a good point about the UN and PI. They were already going to be a stone cold bitch to win with and this will make it much more difficult to kill enemy wizards.

On the other hand, how many UN/PI players actually start the game believing that they are going to win? Sure, we all think there is a chance, but Rex is really off the board for any but the luckiest AND most skilled players. That means it will be a stretch goal for players looking for a serious challenge and some interesting play. That is fine with me!

When you do manage to kill someone's P-5, it's going to hurt that much more! And they will be less likely to be concentrated in one of two groups as the players will want a P-5 in every group now.