The Choosing - 3rd Beta Comments

[Hawk_]

FWIW, I tried to 'unleash the Kraken' on myself. I cast the spell on the area my fleet was trading in. Didn't get attacked, but I can't be sure if I was just lucky or if the spell doesn't catch the kingdom of the caster.

Could you do enough trading to make the Pirates a decent economy or did the need to move troops get in the way?

[Netstrider]

The short answer is I am happy we have Uncle Mike.  We would never have Alamaze as we do today without him.  However, I only have him for a few hours a week.  So please don't ask him to explain things, as that means he's not able to do the things that advance Alamaze. 

We are on that slippery slope where the more information we give on how things like battle are resolved, the more we are asked to explain things.  I think players of other games will agree that we provide much more info / insight than anyone.  Actually, I think the other games would be embarrassed to disclose how light their algorithms  are in comparison.

Both games that filled over the Easter weekend were created earlier today.

I disagree with your take-away. You are getting asked questions because:

a) The descriptions of combat in the rules are not complete enough for anyone to read the rules and have a good idea what's going to happen in even common situations. For example we are talking here in this thread about magic and missile phases of combat. Even a rough description of those phases is not even in any documentation that I can find. Even though it's on the new turn reports as a arbitrary number and there is much more information now on the different types of brigades and what strengths they have in different phases.

b) The battle reports are not reflecting what happens in the code or the description of the actions. When I order a Wind Storm I expect to see a description of the wizard casting the spell *before* the archery phase which is what it's going to affect. Anything else and I'm going to wonder what the heck happened.

I think that you may have a skewed view of some of these things as a designer and someone that's been working on game design and not playing. Or even when you do play, you have the advantage of knowledge of the inner workings that only you have. As a regular player, it is a common situation to invest 20 hours and a $100 over a period of a few months to get to the point where you fight your first significant battle. That is, a battle where magic, tactics and capabilities all come into play. One bad move in that battle and the game that you've invested so much time and effort in could very well be in the toilet. As a player, that sucks when the bad move happens because you haven't learned how the game works "the hard way".

Sure, there will be folks like the die-hards now playing the game that will stick around and try again and again to get it right. But for most people, it's going to be a drop and go play something else. Maybe some of those folk you don't want anyway, but most you would.

I don't really know what other games you are thinking of when you say Alamaze has more such information. I haven't really played anything like Alamaze in years and I'm a pretty heavy gamer. I play things like Civilization or Total War or even Settlers of Catan and those games all have either super simple combat or total control over the combat. Most are single player and you can save & reload until you get it right. But those games are not a mystery that you uncover through months of playing.

I want Alamaze to succeed because a game like this is hard to find on the market today. I think you are capable of defining a completely new market of games because Alamaze is deep and complex where games are getting dumber and simpler. But a complicated game has to be described adequately to be enjoyed as much as it should be.

I'm not trying to whine about anything, just trying to put myself in other people's shoes and relate impressions about the game that I have had and they might have as they go through the same phases of learning.


Hope this helps.

[Ry Vor]

First, my main point was Uncle Mike is not a full time employee, and we went through some difficult choices about what would be included in The Choosing and what had to wait.  So I'm a bit jealous of the time I get, and I don't want it soaked up with questions.  Personally, I work 30 days a month exclusively on Alamaze, and I still haven't finished the General Rules update for 3rd Cycle.  So between The General Rules, The Commands, The Traits, The Spells, The Artifacts, the Dossiers; we are way over 150 pages.  I just would like people to consider how often they have written 150 pages of sort of technical documentation but also keeping it fairly light.  And of course, that has nothing to do with all the text results, such as you wrote about.  That is years of work.  But my intention, and what I was able to do with The Commands due to our current Web Order Entry, is actually simplify The Commands pretty significantly even though there were so many new concepts brought in.  I'm trying to reduce the amount of rules, not put more on the players.

Settlers of Catan, which I have published articles about, has just over 7 pages of rules, and in pretty big type.  I do like your choices, Netstrider, on "other" games, with Settlers and Civilization, and Total War.  All favorites of mine, as is Company of Heroes.  I don't know if I spent much time on the rules for any of those games as a player.  And I am a notoriously mediocre Alamaze player.  I play mainly to make sure things are working correctly, but I am very hesitant to attack players due to my position, so normally just retaliate after being attacked, and so don't place well.  

So, yes, when the General Rules finally gets updated, there will be more on combat, and groups, and probably, most things Alamaze.  But players shouldn't feel they have to know all the values for every brigade type and experience level and terrain and phase and season.  Its all in there: much more comprehensively considered than in any board game, or likely any computer game for that matter, but the player doesn't have to be burdened with it.  I want them to feel the Dwarves fight about as they would expect, if they saw all the Jackson films.  Similar for all kingdoms:  they should have a feel for what strengths kingdoms should have, and that should be a lot clearer in 3rd Cycle with the Traits.

To me, to expand the player base, we need that intro game, and we need less rules, rather than more.  I'm hoping the additional information we are providing in turn results just enhances the Alamaze experience, rather than inserting a new level of required understanding.

Lastly, I wish more new players would start with Primeval.  We have had more than a few players blow off that suggestion, get in a 12 player game and have their heads handed to them and then they are gone.  I think the solution is start with Primeval, don't expect to win, and have fun learning, rather than really upping the requirements of knowledge (by greatly expanding the rules) to be competitive.  And again, most Alamaze players will never win a game, and they don't play Alamaze with a primary intent to win: they play because of the other pleasures playing Alamaze can provide. 

[DuPont]

FWIW, I tried to 'unleash the Kraken' on myself. I cast the spell on the area my fleet was trading in. Didn't get attacked, but I can't be sure if I was just lucky or if the spell doesn't catch the kingdom of the caster.

Could you do enough trading to make the Pirates a decent economy or did the need to move troops get in the way?

Yes, indeed and I made a couple of mistake, too. I managed to lose one of the seas by having somebody usurp my one pop center and could no longer trade in that one. Even without that (and I took it back in the last turn), I will had enough with the pirates cove and trading. There really isn't any kingdom like the Pirates in the 2nd Cycle - it needs a totally new approach but it's just how you would expect real pirates to act. I think they are a fantastic kingdom and look forward to playing them often in the future.
I haven't figure out just how one wins with them, but it's certainly possible.

[Ry Vor]

I enjoyed that post by DuPont.  DuPont....  Wasn't DuPont an actual pirate? 

Pirates were indeed a difficult abstraction, and I hope they are among the most fun kingdoms to play. 

I really do hope players experience new kingdoms.  But also happy there is enthusiasm for the old ones, like the Dark Elves seem to have new fans with the litany of traits, some much favor the Warlock in the Mountains.  Mainly as expected, the wizard kingdoms are getting picked early.  I think with a Tyrant and a Cimmerian Rex victory on record, things will even out.  I meanwhile personally favor for the moment the Lizard King and the Amazons meaning as the ones I'd most like to ride out of the barn.  Some players will look at the Dwarves and think, hmm, Siege Engineering, mountain bonuses, toughness, I can win with them.  And I like the post from Uncle Mike laying out Gnome strategy against the Red Dragon.

The goal obviously is that after everyone gets a taste of the new kingdoms, that all 24 kingdoms are equally savory choices.

[unclemike]

FWIW, I tried to 'unleash the Kraken' on myself. I cast the spell on the area my fleet was trading in. Didn't get attacked, but I can't be sure if I was just lucky or if the spell doesn't catch the kingdom of the caster.

Could you do enough trading to make the Pirates a decent economy or did the need to move troops get in the way?

Yes, indeed and I made a couple of mistake, too. I managed to lose one of the seas by having somebody usurp my one pop center and could no longer trade in that one. Even without that (and I took it back in the last turn), I will had enough with the pirates cove and trading. There really isn't any kingdom like the Pirates in the 2nd Cycle - it needs a totally new approach but it's just how you would expect real pirates to act. I think they are a fantastic kingdom and look forward to playing them often in the future.
I haven't figure out just how one wins with them, but it's certainly possible.

To help Pirates and Atlantians become more competitive, I would like to see those seapower enhancements from experimental game 300 make a comeback!!

Greek fire and battering rams that can destroy enemy ships, reinforced hulls that even a mighty kraken has trouble damaging, cannons that can reach coastal pc's (conquering them), and so on. That's on my wishlist anyway

[Lord Thanatos]

Create Time spell

IL setup states that I receive this spell at an earlier level than other kingdoms.  But I cannot find the spell on the set-up list of spells nor on my turn results.  Am I missing something?



UncleMike,

A small suggestion for the awesome 3rd Cycle order entry program, if I might?

I very much like that the drop-down menu places all controlled pcs at the top of the two letter grid selection.  Is it possible to have the locations of the 12 cities also placed at the top of the drop-down menu?  It would be awfully convenient because with the shorter movement range for emissaries I am often sending emissaries/agents/recons/spells to those city locations.  As I said, it is a very small request in an otherwise awesome, excellent player aid.  Thanks for all of your hard work, my friend.  You have truly created a wondrous work of art; it is a very intuitively simple method of interacting with the game.

[Atuan]

Im not sure that spell made it into the 3rd cycle.

They have a few pieces of clean up to do on documents and such. As Rick wrote. a 150 page document isnt the quickest to finish. I would suspect that detail will be removed from the IL setup a long with a variety of other documents.

[DuPont]

I could use that Create Time spell when I am trying to get my orders in!

[unclemike]

Create Time spell

IL setup states that I receive this spell at an earlier level than other kingdoms.  But I cannot find the spell on the set-up list of spells nor on my turn results.  Am I missing something?

UncleMike,

A small suggestion for the awesome 3rd Cycle order entry program, if I might?

I very much like that the drop-down menu places all controlled pcs at the top of the two letter grid selection.  Is it possible to have the locations of the 12 cities also placed at the top of the drop-down menu?  It would be awfully convenient because with the shorter movement range for emissaries I am often sending emissaries/agents/recons/spells to those city locations.  As I said, it is a very small request in an otherwise awesome, excellent player aid.  Thanks for all of your hard work, my friend.  You have truly created a wondrous work of art; it is a very intuitively simple method of interacting with the game.

I added cities to the list for moving emissaries but you may have to press your browser's refresh button when you're on the Political page to pick up the new version.

There's no Create Time spell. It's way too complicated to get done quickly so was pushed down the list. Can't say when I'll get to it either. It's not an option to select on the new website so there's no chance of casting it...