The Choosing - 3rd Beta Comments

[Hawk_]

By the logic seen in the battle above if someone attacked with a tactic 2 would the archers fire but then not go through the wall?

I was probably wrong re: my statement above.  Looking back at this past report the archer phase took effect before the Wall of Flame comes up.

In this battle the enemy is hit by the wall but then the retreat occurs.  Seems like all attacks on a 1 or 2 should process the archery phase by this logic but they do no.

That was what confused me.

From game 118-


BATTLE BETWEEN THE 1ST GIANT ARMY GROUP AND THE 3RD ANCIENT ONES BRIGADES IN THE PLAINS OF AREA OB:

GIANT ANCIENT ONES
WARLORD ISABAR < COMMANDER > CAPTAIN II CUCAUS
POWER-3 WIZARD INDIKAN < RANKING WIZARD > POWER-5 WIZARD DIVIA
< INFANTRY > 2600 LIGHT/MEDIUM/HEAVY/GUARDS
< CAVALRY > 800 MEDIUM/ELITE
< ARCHERS > 800 BOWMEN/EXPERT
14938 GIANTS/OGRES < OTHER TYPES >
8 < KINGDOM-NAMED BRIGADES > 2
0/0 < RECRUIT/VETERAN BRIGADES > 0/0
9 OGRES < OTHER BRIGADE TYPES >
HIGH ATTRITION / VERY HIGH MORALE / EXCEPTIONAL HEROES < OTHER > HIGH MORALE
DETERMINED ATTACK < TACTICAL SELECTION > SURPRISED
EARLY IN THE DAY WARLORD ISABAR ORDERED THE 1ST GIANT ARMY GROUP TO BEGIN THE ATTACK UPON THE COMPLETELY
SURPRISED 3RD ANCIENT ONES BRIGADES UNDER CAPTAIN II CUCAUS. AMONG THE GIANT TROOPS WERE BRIGADES OF OGRES,
WHICH NOW LEAPED AHEAD TO THE FIRST RANKS! AS THE ATTACKERS CROSSED THE ROLLING PLAINS THE BATTLE BEGAN.
AWARE OF THE POLITICAL AIRS THAT HAS DECLARED THE ANCIENT ONES TO BE TREATED AS AN ENEMY OF THEIR KINGDOM'S
IDEALS, THE GIANT TROOPS WERE INVIGORATED AND BENEFITED FROM INCREASED MORALE AS THEY PREPARED TO FIGHT THEIR
DECLARED ENEMY!
DUE TO THE FACT THAT THEIR NATION HAS MADE THE GIANT KNOWN AS HOSTILE TO THEIR KINGDOM, THE ANCIENT ONES
TROOPS WERE VISIBLY ENERGIZED AND ENJOYED A MORALE BOOST AS THEY PREPARED TO FIGHT THEIR DECLARED ENEMY!
AS THE MOST IMPORTANT GROUP OF THEIR KINGDOM THE FORCES ARE VISIBLY EMBOLDENED BY THE PRESENCE OF THE FIRST
GIANT'S BANNER!
BOTH THE GIANT BOULDER HURLING TROOPS AND THE COOLLY EFFECTIVE ARCHERS OF THE ANCIENT OF THE ANCIENT ONES
FORCE CAUSED TREMENDOUS DAMAGE IN A TENACIOUS DISPLAY. THE GIANT POWER-3 WIZARD INDIKAN BEGAN SORCEROUS
INCANTATIONS IN AN UNKNOWN TONGUE. WITH CHILLING EASE HE FIRED MANY VOLLEYS OF MINOR PHANTASMS AND MAGICAL
BOLTS INTO THE RANKS OF THE ENEMY. THE GIANT POWER-3.0 WIZARD INDIKAN WHILE SEEMINGLY DETACHED FROM ALL ELSE,
SEEMED TO DRAW WITHIN HIMSELF AND BEGAN TO INCANT. HE THEN CREATED A POWERFUL WARDING, WHICH WOULD PROTECT
THE HEROES AND WIZARDS OF HIS FORCE FROM THE BLACK MAGICS OF ANY OPPOSING SPELLCASTERS. THE GIANT HIALE
(POWER- 2.0) WAS NOT A FACTOR IN THE BATTLE. THE ANCIENT ONES POWER-5 WIZARD DIVIA SLOWLY SPOKE IN AN ARCANE
LANGUAGE, GESTURES BUILDING TO A CRESCENDO. WITH AWE-INSPIRING PRECISION HE LAUNCHED MANY PHANTASMAL FORCES
AND DEADLY PYROTECHNICS INTO THE RANKS OF THE ENEMY. THE ANCIENT ONES POWER-5 WIZARD DIVIA MADE A SERIES OF
INTRICATE GESTURES. HE SOUGHT THROUGH HIS MAGIC TO KILL AN ENEMY WIZARD , BUT HE WAS PROTECTED BY ONE OF HIS
WIZARDS MAGIC. THE ANCIENT ONES POWER-4 WIZARD ERUPA GLOWERED INTENTLY AND ISSUED INDECIPHERABLE UTTERANCES.
WITH CHILLING EASE HE FIRED MANY VOLLEYS OF PHANTASMAL FORCES AND DEADLY PYROTECHNICS INTO THE HEART OF THE
ENEMY FORCE. THE ANCIENT ONES POWER-3 WIZARD ULI INCANTED IN A LOW FORCEFUL TONE. IN RAPID SUCCESSION WERE
CAST MANY PHANTASMAL FORCES AND DEADLY PYROTECHNICS INTO THE RANKS OF THE ENEMY. THE ANCIENT ONES POWER-3
WIZARD ULI SLOWLY SPOKE IN AN ARCANE LANGUAGE, GESTURES BUILDING TO A CRESCENDO. AN EXPANSIVE WALL OF FLAMING
FIRE APPEARED SEPARATING THE TWO FORCES. YET THE FEARLESS ENEMY WHILE ACCEPTING TERRIBLE LOSSES, CROSSED
THROUGH IT! EACH FORCES MAGES CLAIMED LIGHT LOSSES.
WITH HIGHER THAN EXPECTED LOSSES, CAPTAIN II CUCAUS HAD NO CHOICE BUT TO ORDER THE ANCIENT ONES FORCE TO
WITHDRAW. THE RETREAT WAS A CREDIT TO THE ANCIENT ONES FORCE'S DISCIPLINE, AS FEW ADDITIONAL LOSSES WERE
SUFFERED WITHDRAWING. GIANT CASULTIES WERE ESTIMATED AT 4600 CREATURES. GIANT HEROES BATTLED BRAVELY. ALL
GIANT LEADERS SURVIVED THE BATTLE. THE GIANT WIZARDS INDIKAN AND HIALE SURVIVED THE FRAY. THE GIANT TROOPS
ARE EAGER FOR MORE VICTORIES: MORALE IS UP! ANCIENT ONES CASULTIES WERE PUT AT 3200 TROOPS. ANCIENT ONES
HEROES FOUGHT COURAGEOUSLY. ALL ANCIENT ONES LEADERS SURVIVED THE BATTLE. A NEW LEADER, CAPTAIN ARMSTED HAS
EMERGED AS A DECISIVE LEADER OF GREAT PROMISE. THE ANCIENT ONES WIZARDS DIVIA AND ERUPA AND ULI SURVIVED THE
FRAY. THE ANCIENT ONES FORCES MORALE WENT UP TREMENDOUSLY DUE TO THEIR COURAGEOUS AND VALIANT EFFORT IN THE
BATTLE.

[Netstrider]

I had a discussion with Uncle Mike that was started because it's not clear that pre-battle spells work - like Wind Storm are being cast and working as expected. Mike admitted the need for a pre-battle magic phase in the report (actually happens in the code it seems) to clear things up but it didn't sound like a priority. I feel this is a P0 bug and should be fixed immediately. Anyone (but especially newbs) playing the game is going to be super confused by what they are reading.

In this report you don't even see that Wall of Fire is affecting the battlefield and that seems terrible from a game play enjoyment factor.

Also, didn't the Tyrant do a determined attack - which means they went through the Wall of Fire to cause the archery phase to happen?

[HeadHoncho]

This looks like a Second Cycle battle, since GI is not a Third Cycle Kingdom?

Also, surprised two brigades of AN troops caused "tremendous" damage to an Army Group of Giants during the archery phase?

[Hawk_]

This looks like a Second Cycle battle, since GI is not a Third Cycle Kingdom?

Also, surprised two brigades of AN troops caused "tremendous" damage to an Army Group of Giants during the archery phase?

HH-  That was my 2nd Cycle example showing archery phase prior to the wall of flame casting.  I also posted the 3rd cycle results now farther above.

Netstrider-  I agree there should be the spell casting first, then you can see shield, valor, fear, etc... also.  In 505 above I cast a shield spell that was not listed.  The attack spells should come where they do now.  


Anyone else agree that all combats should process vs a wall of flame through the archery and/magic phase?  It is clear the wall blocks the charge/infantry but why not allow the archery and possibly magic attacks?

[Netstrider]

My understanding of WoF was that it didn't allow the opposing/attacking force close enough to do anything/cause damage. Unless you can fly over it. But arrows can't go over or through a wall of flame. Maybe a giant's thrown boulder (instant meteor? ), but not an arrow. So I would say nothing should happen. 2 cents worth.

[Hawk_]

My understanding of WoF was that it didn't allow the opposing/attacking force close enough to do anything/cause damage. Unless you can fly over it. But arrows can't go over or through a wall of flame. Maybe a giant's thrown boulder (instant meteor? ), but not an arrow. So I would say nothing should happen. 2 cents worth.

Just to clarify my point.   In both of the battles I posted above the entire missile phase is being processed prior to the spell taking affect.

Prior to reading this closely today I had thought the wall of flame prevented the missile phase(s) but it does not.  That is why I am now suggesting all combats should process to the point where the wall appears.

[unclemike]

Hang on here folks!

The wall of flame spell works just as it always did going back to the ole' Clipper days of when Cipher was running things. I didn't change the code other than to consider that groups may fly over the wall with the appropriate flying artifact or kingdom trait (Flyers).

For this particular battle, the 1TY issued a Determined Attack (TAC 3) which will always allow your group to pass thru the wall and enable battle between the two groups. It doesn't matter what TAC that the other group issued, if one or both issued a TAC 3, a battle will take place.

Any side that passes thru a wall of fire will take damage (including if you're passing thru your own wall!) during the magic phase of the combat sequence (not before). If two walls of fire are up (one from each side) then the group passing thru the wall (which may be both groups) will take damage from both walls!

A wall of fire isn't like the shield spell where it prevents damage to your group throughout the entire battle sequence of all phases. A wall of fire has the potential to prevent combat from occurring but in no way does it actually reduce damage like a protection spell/artifact/trait. It never worked that way before and I don't believe there are plans of changing its behavior any time soon.

Now to directly address your statements:

Hawk: In the past the wall seemed to affect all phases of combat.
Answer: Not true, read the above.

Jumpingfist: By the logic seen in the battle above if someone attacked with a tactic 2 would the archers fire but then not go through the wall?
Answer: The 1TY issued TAC 3 which enabled the battle. Don't know why you're asking about TAC 2 other than it being a hypothetical question. Read the above though the behavior of the wall hasn't changed.

Hawk: Seems like all attacks on a 1 or 2 should process the archery phase by this logic but they do no. That was what confused me.(referring to game 118).
Answer: Even though that game was run by the older Clipper code, one side issued TAC 3 while the other was Surprised so the battle took place as it should. It also showed the archer damage before the wall took effect with, "BOTH THE GIANT BOULDER HURLING TROOPS AND THE COOLLY EFFECTIVE ARCHERS OF THE ANCIENT OF THE ANCIENT ONES FORCE CAUSED TREMENDOUS DAMAGE IN A TENACIOUS DISPLAY". Then the magic phase started. So where's the confusion? Combat phases are archer then magic, as always...

Netstrider: ...it's not clear that pre-battle spells work.
Answer: They do.

Netstrider: Anyone (but especially newbs) playing the game is going to be super confused by what they are reading.
Answer: I recommend that you first learn how things work which may only happen by experimenting with things or certain combos. There's no confusion on the sequence of battle events or magical spell effects, just paranoia (I guess) by some, but that will change when they learn the game. Combat phases are archer then magic. If neither side issued a TAC 3 then no battle will take place and both kingdoms will see a notice about it on their kingdom reports. If one or more issued a TAC 3 then they'll see a different notice on their kingdom reports so all bases are being covered here. No confusion, just read the entire kingdom report not just the battle report.

Netstrider: Mike admitted the need for a pre-battle magic phase...
Answer: Nope, that was something that Ry Vor mentioned that he may do regarding changing the execution order of certain spells and effects.

Netstrider: In this report you don't even see that Wall of Fire is affecting the battlefield
Answer: That's because the TY group overpowered the NO during the archer phase causing the NO to retreat before the wall may inflict damage on either group. So no spell description in the battle report since it didn't happen yet and no damage was inflicted on either group. A notice was provided on the caster report (under wizard/agent section) that the wizard cast the wall of flame spell. If the NO group didn't retreat from the archer phase, the battle report would have progressed to the next phase (magic) where the listing of wizards and their spells are presented, including the wonderful wall of flame spell which would have eliminated your concerns about it. Since the spell didn't inflict damage, it shouldn't be displayed on the battle report yet.

HeadHoncho: Also, surprised two brigades of AN troops caused "tremendous" damage to an Army Group of Giants during the archery phase?
Answer: That game was run by the older Clipper code so may have used incorrect phrases to describe the amount of damage being done. Ry Vor has provided updated revisions of battle text and phrases so the newer version of the program could state it differently but I don't know off-hand since there are thousands of text fragments for battles.

Hawk: Anyone else agree that all combats should process vs a wall of flame through the archery and/magic phase?  It is clear the wall blocks the charge/infantry but why not allow the archery and possibly magic attacks?
Answer: Read the above and learn the game. The wall of flame is nothing new here folks.

Hawk: That is why I am now suggesting all combats should process to the point where the wall appears.
Answer: Read the above and learn how the game works.

I don't ever recall Cipher fully explaining things to the degree that I have done over the past couple of years or so. Perhaps, I should stop to keep things esoteric, mysterious, and allow players the opportunity to explore the game and figure things out by themselves.

Since all of these questions are going back to yesteryear's mechanic, I guess I'll say ignore this entire post that I wrote other than: The code works as it should, enjoy the game!

[Ry Vor]

The short answer is I am happy we have Uncle Mike.  We would never have Alamaze as we do today without him.  However, I only have him for a few hours a week.  So please don't ask him to explain things, as that means he's not able to do the things that advance Alamaze. 

We are on that slippery slope where the more information we give on how things like battle are resolved, the more we are asked to explain things.  I think players of other games will agree that we provide much more info / insight than anyone.  Actually, I think the other games would be embarrassed to disclose how light their algorithms  are in comparison.

Both games that filled over the Easter weekend were created earlier today.

[Ry Vor]

I would add that there are other text results we'd like to update.  Just as I am having a hard time with the General Rules (they really have not been updated in, well, a long time), we have lots of results text i would like to get to.  Mike does a great job of getting in place what he is given, but the designer has to give him the input, and then in the scheme of what we are trying to do, fit it in.  So do we create an introductory game, where we may get lots of new players, or do we work on what the current player base wants?  I think next is the intro and solo game and 1v1, then the next scenario for 3rd Cycle, and then, Lord Diamond do not pass out, Kingdoms of Arcania.

And I am trying to get a kick-ass Alamaze-like board game design going.  That's actually going pretty well and you will want to play.  But I am still fleshing out ideas, and so if you have an opinion on what is the most fun in such a game, let me know by posting.  Maybe it should be its own thread.

[DuPont]

FWIW, I tried to 'unleash the Kraken' on myself. I cast the spell on the area my fleet was trading in. Didn't get attacked, but I can't be sure if I was just lucky or if the spell doesn't catch the kingdom of the caster.