# 502 Choosing Beta 1

[Atuan]

Its taken a bit of work to get set up but I have officially taken over for HH and am now ruler of the Cimmerians. I can be reached at somethingissilly@yahoo.com

[IMPERIAL_TARK]

I know that in 2nd Cycle, its a common tactic to do a Divination (#857) on the turn of, or before, reinforcements arrive to help you deduce where your opponents capital is by where his groups are located to pick them up.

However, I thought this loophole would be fixed in 3rd Cycle for people with the Secretive trait (hidden capital) since it says that it should require a L4 and that Divinations will not work.  But it appears that the SO was able to locate my (PI) hidden capital with just such an #857 order (according to e-mails we've exchanged).  So hoping that is something that is/can be fixed or the Secretive trait is just gaining a L4 agent and little more.

I would hope that in 3C, if someone does an #857 that it does not reveal anything about the location of ANY groups that happen to be at the hidden capital that turn.  So if 3 of the 5 Pirate groups are at the hidden capital and someone does an #857 on the Pirates, they only get info on the two that are not at the capital.  And should another kingdom, lets say the 2SA also be at the Pirate capital and someone does an #857 on the SA, their 2SA group shouldn't show up either.

Just my 2 cents.

This and other safeguards for the Hidden Capital are on the list for the next go-around on 3rd Cycle features, orders, clarifications, bugs, and presentation.  Its a lot to do.  We'd want to have these, and an updated rules set ready before the third beta begins.

I actually have another opinion regarding hidden pc's and groups. If I remember correctly, troops aren't actually inside a pc's walls but rather exist outside so why should a hidden pc provide protection to a group that happens to be there? A defending group at the same location as a pc doesn't gain any benefits of being behind the walls or support from the garrison if they are attacked so why should a group be provided an invisible benefit?

If you're worried that another kingdom may detect where your hidden capital is before reinforcements arrive then there are ways to counter this with your own strategy: (1) use an inactive group to receive reinforcements, or (2) move your capital away from the hidden pc before reinforcements.

I've done #2 quite a few times and in game 185 as the Troll, I moved my capital something like 4-5 times in the early stages to position my capital deep into enemy territory so that my groups would receive reinforcements or additional troops with 565 (in 2nd cycle, you can 565 at capital regardless of terrain). So I was moving my capital quite often to bolster my groups with a ton of orcs and reinforcements. Then I would move my capital back into my home territory where it was safe for a turn or two before moving it again.

Some might say that strategy was excessive (and certainly had disadvantages of your capital being vulnerable if moved to a village which I did a couple of times) but I had to because I was fighting the Giant which has stronger troops so I had to employ an aggressive strategy to fight him. I only lasted until turn 15 or so in that game but I had lots of fun going against one of the best players in the game (Lord Thanatos was the GI).

So I disagree with the change of having hidden pc's provide protection to groups stationed nearby. It doesn't fit the rules (troops aren't actually inside a pc) nor will it be productive for the game since the code would then be countering a well played tactic (of divining groups before reinforcements) and not allowing the other player to counter with a better strategy (like the two suggestions above).

I would offer the following counterpoint: I would assume that the general area around the city would also be hidden and not just literally from the exact city borders inward. My perception of "how" the city is hidden would include its use of the camouflage of the surrounding terrain mixed in with some magic and could therefore extend to quite a large area (miles and miles in some cases) around the city proper. As such, a group that is at the city (visiting and/or camped outside nearby) would be hidden as well. If the Secretive trait kingdoms now have this ability bypassed with something as simple as an #857 divination, it would certainly change my mind on whether I wished to play those kingdoms. I don't want to have to worry about the logistics of an inactive group for reinforcements every 5 turns to maintain this advantage with all the other complexities of 3rd Cycle. Furthermore, while your points about moving your capital with a #355 in 2C above are well taken, it again is negating the whole point of having a secret/hidden PC in 3C.
So I'm trying to give you my feedback liked you asked. But I will be much, much, much less inclined to play a Secretive trait kingdom when what should be their greatest strength/asset is so easily negated by one order.

[VballMichael]

Thanks, Tark. Good points.
So, UM, if we take your thoughts and move the capital temporarily, does the town still stay a hidden town? And, when I move my cap back there, is it still hidden?

[unclemike]

Thanks, Tark. Good points.
So, UM, if we take your thoughts and move the capital temporarily, does the town still stay a hidden town? And, when I move my cap back there, is it still hidden?

Glyph of Concealment (i.e. hidden pc) and other glyphs (like the Glyph of Protection that you can get with the Kingdom Customization Order #11) are permanent features for the pc. So if you move your capital, the glyph stays where it was originally.

[Jhereg]

(WA) I cast meteor strike #155 and it looks like it worked as I got a message that said the village of bittersweet was completely engulfed in magical fires by our powerful magic. It has been completely destroyed!

The thing is that when I read the spell description a bit closer I realized that my group had to be in the same area. My group was in the same region but not in the same area. Not sure if this an error in the code or in the description or in the message within the results.

If the change in the meteor strike spell does in fact change so that the wizard must be in the same location the effect of the spell will be greatly diminished in my opinion. While that may be the desired effect it significantly changes the wizard kingdoms offensive capabltities in the later rounds and makes water pc's extremely more defendable.

[Atuan]

UM can you weigh in on how Meteor Strike is supposed to work. IE does the group need to be in the same square when the spell is cast as the PC it is targeting?

[unclemike]

UM can you weigh in on how Meteor Strike is supposed to work.  IE does the group need to be in the same square when the spell is cast as the PC it is targeting?

Spell description says same pc area so the code has to be fixed to check for pc not region.

[Atuan]

umm then am I owed some PCs? As I dont remember seeing a group on the town that was destroyed either.

[HeadHoncho]

It's a playtest, so we're not really making a lot of in game adjustments, but it's a great opportunity to learn more about the game and help to develop it.

[Atuan]

thats fine. Just trying to determine if my orders were going to change.