Regional reactions

[Cipher]

So, the handoff to Java is essentially complete, and I don't foresee any significant involvement by me going forward.

There are a few areas where I've pointed out things that are being handled differently between the platforms, and I expect that Rick and Mike will deal with them as time allows, most likely in this format where questions are asked about things that are different and the responses provided.

I noticed on another thread Ry Vor discussing the 'double friendly' that no longer exists, even though it is addressed somewhat differently here.

I'll take one more stab at explaining the difference, but at this point I may well just admit that my 'failure is complete...'

USED TO BE:
Every kingdom had a base regional reaction level in every region. This was maintained in a table and updated by permanent effects - enamors/denigrates that resulted from king orders, spells, PC destruction etcetera.
Every action that involved regional reaction checked for non-permanent effects - region owners ally/enemy declarations, Demonic denigrations, etc. - which is what I've referred to as 'effective regional reaction' - and what used to be displayed on turn results.

Actions that depended on regional reaction utilized the effective reaction level. You could never be better than Friendly nor worse than Hostile regardless of any temporary effects in place. Should an ally/enemy declaration change or Demonic order wear off, you were back to your base level. There was never any double anything.

NOW:
There is no distinction between base and effective - all modifications are updated directly to the reaction level. I believe the 273/283 orders are not shown on turn results' reaction levels but are accounted for in order messages. There is no double anything.

Like everything else, this is a fair design change to make. However, in the example that started this thread it does seem crappy that you can invest in improving RR to Friendly to gain the region and essentially lose some of your ability to defend the region from another player or player(s) that knock you out of control - you'll be downgraded to below the status you had before gaining the region, they'll likely get a level bump - effectively doubling the impact (them from Tolerant->Friendly and you from Frdly->Tol) and meaning they benefit from you having to choose between enamoring yourself or denigrating them in the region where you expended a fair amount of attention. Definitely making 2:1 (or greater) attacks even more effective, especially early on v primary/starting regions.

My recommendation was to print both base and effective reaction levels on the turn results, but it looks like Ry Vor is going to go with the design change instead.

[HeadHoncho]

Agree with Cipher. It seems as if the push to "freeze" the platform has resulted in a "freeze, but only after a variety of changes that were never really discussed thoroughly or tested in actual play are pushed through, because we want to get these last bits in before we call it a day" type of phenomenon.

As I've said from the start, that's the designer's prerogative, but it's feeling less and less like "Classic" Alamaze with every change, and meanwhile the customer experience becomes more and more frustrating.

I'm sure those of us who stick it out will get used to it all and adapt over time, just as we have for various other changes that have taken place gradually over the course of two-plus years... but that long-term realization does little to mitigate the short-term exasperation, in my view.

[Ry Vor]

I have apologized for the jolt on the change from Clipper to java several times.  And I appreciate Cipher delicately putting it that I could have done better with the migration.  And I hear Head Honcho and others that they still aren't sure what other changes have been implemented that may not have been announced. 

And I have said several times why the changes were made and were necessary in the view of the designer, and that those were important to me in order to commit, basically, my work-life which is 7 days a week, to evolving Alamaze.  I said in a different thread (players?) just recently that Phil was devoted to preserving Alamaze as it was originally designed when he undertook the conversion to Clipper.  It really was painstaking how much he wanted every detail to survive in the non-Symphony edition.  He and I discussed that topic kind of endlessly, he always defending the original, me wanting to take it further.  I always said I was a rookie designer then, and I have gotten better, and I made some mistakes in the original design.  He liked the "mistakes", as some players have.  And just while I invoke Phil here, I also acknowledge I would never even hope to be the person Phil was to the players, who he honestly enjoyed fully and would spend countless hours with, developing life-long friendships, as Cipher and many others can attest.

Anyway, while it seems just today that we have a couple remaining issues with the conversion to java, believe me when I say I do not want any other changes to what Alamaze is, until we have quite a few of them in The Choosing.  I also really want Mike first to have a chance to take a break - I still don't think players appreciate or would even have reason to know, the amount of work he has put in and how fast things have gone in the last few months, but it has been incredible and he generally might work past midnight to correct a bug that was discovered that day.  So I would like for him to have a week or two off to recharge before asking for any work on The Choosing. 

Meanwhile I have been making progress on that development.   I am still parsing out some things I had developed in order to have a more contiguous path from Classic, or as Cipher preferred, Resurgent, to The Choosing, and then on to 3rd Cycle.  So in the preference of Lord Diamond and perhaps others, I won't even mention what has been carved out for the next release, but you'll see it at some point, God and Mike willing.  Still, I have no doubt our players will really enjoy what is in store in The Choosing.

Thanks again all for bearing with us during the conversion from Clipper to Java.  Perge. 

[Mad Hatter]

Been searching to find out the answer to this. I worked my way up to friendly in a neighboring region (not natural enemies). In one turn he declared me an enemy and denigrated me, now I'm hostile? Seems like an awful big drop. It could take 3 turns to enamor yourself from hostile to friendly and one turn you're back where you started? Doesn't seem very fair to the diplomatic kingdoms.

Also, what is the best I can get myself up to with him having control and having declared me an enemy?

[Hawk_]

Been searching to find out the answer to this. I worked my way up to friendly in a neighboring region (not natural enemies). In one turn he declared me an enemy and denigrated me, now I'm hostile? Seems like an awful big drop. It could take 3 turns to enamor yourself from hostile to friendly and one turn you're back where you started? Doesn't seem very fair to the diplomatic kingdoms.

Also, what is the best I can get myself up to with him having control and having declared me an enemy?

There should be an explanation for this.   Possible reasons:

denigrated more than 1 time?  AN can denigrate multiple times

denigrated by more than 1 kingdom?

did you destroy a pop center?

did you get hit by a spell that affected RR?

did you 240  tax a pop center?

did you just loose control of the region in question?

Otherwise you should be SUSP

[Frost Lord]

There is also an artifact that can denigrate (the Staff of Distain). ...same thing happened to me a few months ago...Friendly to Hostile in 1 turn.

Declared me enemy (Tolerant)
Used the Staff on me (Suspicious)
Denigrated me (Hostile)

[Mad Hatter]

Just an enemy declaration and ONE denigration reported, from Friendly to Hostile. I didn't control the region or have a pc there or destroy anything, wouldn't any denigration using the Staff or infuriate populous spell be reported?

Kind of a mute point now, as I will take all but 2 pc's there after this next turn....haha...take that!!! Denigrate me will you?! I will rule those lands!!!

[Hawk_]

Just an enemy declaration and ONE denigration reported, from Friendly to Hostile. I didn't control the region or have a pc there or destroy anything, wouldn't any denigration using the Staff or infuriate populous spell be reported?

Kind of a mute point now, as I will take all but 2 pc's there after this next turn....haha...take that!!! Denigrate me will you?! I will rule those lands!!!

Seems strange, if you want me to take a look you can send turns to dbeitz@yahoo

I am only in 192 and 193 currently.

[Hawk_]

Just an enemy declaration and ONE denigration reported, from Friendly to Hostile. I didn't control the region or have a pc there or destroy anything, wouldn't any denigration using the Staff or infuriate populous spell be reported?

Kind of a mute point now, as I will take all but 2 pc's there after this next turn....haha...take that!!! Denigrate me will you?! I will rule those lands!!!

Seems strange, if you want me to take a look you can send turns to dbeitz@yahoo

I am only in 192 and 193 currently.

After studying the turns it appears there is indeed something very strange going on here.

I can't explain the RR shift.

[VballMichael]

Just an enemy declaration and ONE denigration reported, from Friendly to Hostile. I didn't control the region or have a pc there or destroy anything, wouldn't any denigration using the Staff or infuriate populous spell be reported?

Kind of a mute point now, as I will take all but 2 pc's there after this next turn....haha...take that!!! Denigrate me will you?! I will rule those lands!!!

Seems strange, if you want me to take a look you can send turns to dbeitz@yahoo

I am only in 192 and 193 currently.

After studying the turns it appears there is indeed something very strange going on here.

I can't explain the RR shift.

Was there a temporary bump in RR on his part? I had that happen once where I had a temporary boost for a turn so turn end showed one reaction level, but it was dropping (think I was DE).