different abilities for Black and Red Dragons.

[Jumbie]

I recognize that there's balance in kingdoms since being weaker in one area usually is compensated for with strengths in another, but the BL and RD situation seems odd, especially in light of the Dark Elf/High Elf situation.

There are only very minor differences in setup between the Elves and Dark Elves, two strains of the same species.

With the Black Dragon, however, they seem to have more significanty different traits than their Red cousins.

For instance, Black Dragons don't have a penalty for parley/diplomacy like the Red. The explanation for the Red having a penalty is that they're so scary that the villagers can't hear the offer well. But it would seem that Black Dragons should be just as scary too, since they also have the 'scary' bonus for threatening and group combat.

Also, Red dragon heroes/wizards are 35% less likely to die whereas the Black have only a 10% bonus.

So are the black dragons a less scary and less resilient breed? :-)

[wfrankenhoff]

Yes, BL brigades are significantly weaker than Red Dragon brigades (for example, one on one, a ranger brigade would take the BL, while the RD would maul the RA). To make up for that, the BL start with more brigades than the RD, have an extra political, and aren't penalized diplomatically (like the RD is with his parly/diplomacy).

Think of them as light tanks...swift and versatile while the Red Dragon are heavy tanks, swift and geared for combat.

[Ry Vor]

I recognize that there's balance in kingdoms since being weaker in one area usually is compensated for with strengths in another, but the BL and RD situation seems odd, especially in light of the Dark Elf/High Elf situation.

There are only very minor differences in setup between the Elves and Dark Elves, two strains of the same species.

With the Black Dragon, however, they seem to have more significanty different traits than their Red cousins.

For instance, Black Dragons don't have a penalty for parley/diplomacy like the Red. The explanation for the Red having a penalty is that they're so scary that the villagers can't hear the offer well. But it would seem that Black Dragons should be just as scary too, since they also have the 'scary' bonus for threatening and group combat.

Also, Red dragon heroes/wizards are 35% less likely to die whereas the Black have only a 10% bonus.

So are the black dragons a less scary and less resilient breed? :-)

I'm sure The Players will want to pipe in. I'd just say there was no intention to make the Black like the Red dragon, and most would feel the Black Dragons have a much easier time of things early on given the geography and other factors. The Red Dragons are very cool, and everyone wants to know what they intend to do, but it is a more challenging position from a strategic perspective.

I'm not sure I'd agree that the High Elves and Dark Elves are that similar either, and again, they will be seeing completely different early game strategies. The Dark Elf has much better agents and a few other advantages, while the High Elves enjoy perhaps the best geographical advantage.

[Kalrex]

Keep in mind this was back when TSR was the end all -be all game company for the genre and Dragons in gaming, back then, were different.

The classic box set even has the Larry Elmore Red Dragon fighting a warrior. Red Dragons were ICONIC and the baddest of the bad. so there were all sorts of additional dragons but they weren't as nasty. some had cool traits-

I'd imagine this is what went through Ricks mind designing the kingdoms and simply back then it made perfect sense. Still does to older fantasy gamers probably.

Maybe a way to think of it is sure black Dragons are an intimidating presence but then if Red Dragons show up they scare the shit out of people even worse

[Ry Vor]

Keep in mind this was back when TSR was the end all -be all game company for the genre and Dragons in gaming, back then, were different.

The classic box set even has the Larry Elmore Red Dragon fighting a warrior. Red Dragons were ICONIC and the baddest of the bad. so there were all sorts of additional dragons but they weren't as nasty. some had cool traits-

I'd imagine this is what went through Ricks mind designing the kingdoms and simply back then it made perfect sense. Still does to older fantasy gamers probably.

Maybe a way to think of it is sure black Dragons are an intimidating presence but then if Red Dragons show up they scare the shit out of people even worse

Well put, Kalrex. I am not all that embarrassed to say I started playing D&D before it was AD&D in its first year with the three pamphlets, and I believe I called this game Alamaze because that was the name of my massive D&D campaign back in college. I started playing MTG as beta was ending, and I met Jim Paisley, the map maker, playing Axis & Allies. We've already discussed Diplomacy, I believe.