~June 17 Update

[Ry Vor]

Alright, we won't install the intrinsic ability for Dire Wolf and True Seeing, so those spells will remain unused.  Would the player base like to also eliminate the intrinsic for Light and Bridge?  Should the concept of intrinsic spells be eliminated?

[Lord Thanatos]

Alright, we won't install the intrinsic ability for Dire Wolf and True Seeing, so those spells will remain unused.  Would the player base like to also eliminate the intrinsic for Light and Bridge?  Should the concept of intrinsic spells be eliminated?

Intrinsic Dire Wolf and True Seeing are great ideas.

Will express why later since I must submit game orders within the hour.

[Lord Diamond]

Alright, we won't install the intrinsic ability for Dire Wolf and True Seeing, so those spells will remain unused.  Would the player base like to also eliminate the intrinsic for Light and Bridge?  Should the concept of intrinsic spells be eliminated?

No! I say wait for more feedback before deciding. I LIKE the intrinsic True Seeing. I like Dire Wolf as well, but that one does have more of a wide spread impact. 

Light and Bridge are important. Please keep them intrinsic.

[Atuan]

I would get more feedback on true seeing and dire wolves. I see changes but dont think true seeing will be an issue, its just an adjustment. But the dire wolves... that one I do believe that one only raises the wizard kingdoms up.

I like the other intrinsic options already in place.

[Lord Thanatos]

I would get more feedback on true seeing and dire wolves.  I see changes but dont think true seeing will be an issue, its just an adjustment.  But the dire wolves... that one I do believe that one only raises the wizard kingdoms up.

I like the other intrinsic options already in place.

"Raises the wizard kingdoms up"?

Compared to what they were in 2nd the wizards are woeful now -- or will be in late games.

Their most powerful spells require brigades within the group.  [This makes them infinitely more susceptible to danger.]

Many kingdoms have resistance or immunity to some of their best spells such as sleep and summon death.  [This makes these spells less attractive.  Why cast a spell with a 33% likelihood of failure instead of one I am certain will work?]

They cannot destroy population centers at range.  [This makes their late game utility nearly disappear -- except to gather information (as an agent does) or assist groups (as a military commander does) or adjust regional reaction (as emissaries do.)]  So where do wizards dominate in the late game?  I will grant there is utility there but no unique impact upon the game.  They used to dominate late game.

I imagine kingdoms without wizards late game will just purchase a couple to raise to level 3 for intrinsic presence and be satisfied...

The agents are already improved in The Choosing -- and by a wide margin.  After level 7 they do not die with unsuccessful missions.  They can recon 4 hexes now and simultaneously find pcs, groups, and US.  Agents are more ubiquitous as well, since more than a single kingdom starts with level 6 agents.  Multiple kingdoms can train agents at a reduced rate (some pay an exorbitant rate).  Agents are much, much safer in water hexes than previously.  Their guard abilities have been improved.  Etc...

I had a conversation recently with another player and expressed the opinion that wizards are now glorified military personnel.  Summoning and Battle Spells are their sole forte.  They cannot dominate the game late so are far less fearsome to other kingdoms.  If wizards are going to be relegated to military support units then intrinsic Dire Wolf and True Seeing fits right into this concept, in my opinion.  Intrinsic Dire Wolf will only matter for a few turns at most.  By the time more than one wizard reaches a sufficient level almost every player will have level 10 or higher agents set to a standing order to guard important groups.  If Dire Wolf is bothering you than your opponents are not properly protecting their groups anyhow.  Intrinsic True Seeing also fits right into this concept of military support units.  The experienced players are already scouting with high-level agents wherever the groups are landing.  Invisible wizard hunting groups were previously so awesomely powerful that every experienced player used Agents to scout for those invisible groups.

I see intrinsic Dire Wolf and True Seeing as a stop-gap measure until the high level agents become available.  This is a good idea.

Nothing worse in the early game than for a player to invest 200,000+ gold to raise a wizard to mid-level only to have it die to an agent that cost less than 50,000 gold to train.   Don't want to worry about intrinsic Dire Wolf as UN?  Strike before intrinsic Dire Wolf is available.  Even after it is available hope that your opponent relies upon Dire Wolf as sufficient instead of posting a high level agent or two to counter espionage groups.  This could make the UN (and other agent kingdoms) even more powerful if players rely upon intrinsic Dire Wolf.  Also, this change will most likely only affect one group at a time for the majority of the game unless players are placing their high level wizards in multiple groups.  If they do, this is inefficient.  A wizard teleporting around to scout is not as efficient as artifacts or agents or other spells.  Most players will still post their high level wizards in their most powerful groups.

I think intrinsic Dire Wolf and intrinsic True Seeing are great changes.

I do think that True Seeing should provide a complete description of any groups in the same hex -- i.e. all 10 brigade types present as well as leaders and wizards.  But this is a different conversation.

I will say that I presently hate the limitations placed on wizards.  And it is the wizards in Alamaze that give the game its sense of fantasy worlds coming to life.  Once I stop thinking wizards are anything special/powerful/feared/mighty I probably stop playing...

As always, just my thoughts.

[Hawk_]

I have read over the proposed June 17th changes and in this case I am in favor of these changes 100%

And thank you for the TRoll healing change also.

[Ry Vor]

Two things.

1.  I have been asked to keep the topic open on Dire Wolf and True Seeing as intrinsic.  And want to clarify, The Dire Wolf spell does not stack with other Dire Wolf spells in the same group.  So whether you have 1 or 3 wizards that would have the ability of intrinsic Dire Wolf, you would only get 1, acting as L4 counter and L1 recon.

I would actually like to augment the spell and so the intrinsic ability, so that the Dire Wolf aids by maybe 5 points in an Unusual Encounter.  Obviously the Dire Wolf concept is lifted brazenly from Game of Thrones.  They don't summon Dire Wolves each turn, the wolf is a constant and useful companion.  Adds to the atmosphere, I was hoping.  But I don't have my heart set on making it intrinsic two power levels above.  We'll just hear more of what has been good discussion. 

2.  I wanted to clarify about Agents above L6 not dying.  Actually, what was done is to eliminate the "oh sh.t" of a high level agent team dying on a routine mission.  But there is still a chance they will be eliminated on dangerous missions, defined as:

Agent Team Survival.  An agent team above level 6 loses 4-6 levels instead of being wiped out entirely, except for the most dangerous missions such as assassinating/kidnapping a king/queen/regent/consul/demon prince/prince, assassinating a warlord/pwr5+, or stealing an artifact of above FINE level.

I'll include the specifics in the General Rules soon.

[Acererak]

I would initially be for the intrinsic Dire Wolf at P6-7+ because as it stands I find the 3 square Counter Espionage rule change the toughest single change between 2nd and 3rd cycle. It's very difficult to keep an agent doing CE to protect wizards and artifacts in a group if they are moving with any regularity. In 2nd cycle you could pop a level 4-7 somewhere near the region where your war is generally happening and set up a standing order CE. Now that's impossible. 3 squares is nothing! But it's also generally a good rule change I think because it makes you think ahead so much more.

[Ry Vor]

I would initially be for the intrinsic Dire Wolf at P6-7+ because as it stands I find the 3 square Counter Espionage rule change the toughest single change between 2nd and 3rd cycle. It's very difficult to keep an agent doing CE to protect wizards and artifacts in a group if they are moving with any regularity. In 2nd cycle you could pop a level 4-7 somewhere near the region where your war is generally happening and set up a standing order CE. Now that's impossible. 3 squares is nothing! But it's also generally a good rule change I think because it makes you think ahead so much more.

The counter espionage and guard range is 8.

[Hawk_]

I would initially be for the intrinsic Dire Wolf at P6-7+ because as it stands I find the 3 square Counter Espionage rule change the toughest single change between 2nd and 3rd cycle. It's very difficult to keep an agent doing CE to protect wizards and artifacts in a group if they are moving with any regularity. In 2nd cycle you could pop a level 4-7 somewhere near the region where your war is generally happening and set up a standing order CE. Now that's impossible. 3 squares is nothing! But it's also generally a good rule change I think because it makes you think ahead so much more.

The counter espionage and guard range is 8.

Thanks for the clarification.  I was looking through old threads thinking I must have missed something...